[tarheel91]

True13lue said: I believe that abortion is good or bad depending on the situation.
I agree with Vice on the fetus thing. It’s alive, but it’s not conscious. It’s just an empty shell, like someone on life support. No brainwaves or anything. I mean, we kill plants all the time and they are “living” too in a sense, right? But we kill them anyway. Unless a piece of grass begs me not to kill it by stepping on it, I’ll still step on it anyway.

You can’t honestly be arguing a fetus is comparable to someone on life support. I hope you see there’s a major difference between the two…

What you have to prove is that fetuses aren’t humans that deserve rights yet, and instead of doing that, you simply assumed that to be true and ranted on with that as a given. That doesn’t work in logic, sorry. You’re basically saying fetuses aren’t humans because fetuses aren’t humans.

Your implicit argument is that because fetuses aren’t conscious, they aren’t humans. However, that’s only your definition of human, and it’s not fact. See where the issue arises? Plus, it’s flawed. You tried to compare a fetus to someone on life support. The reason their (someone on life support) right to life is given up in some cases (some states still don’t allow the plug to be pulled) is not because they’re unconscious and incapable of making a decision then, but because they are going to remain unconscious and will never be able to make that choice. A fetus is entirely different in that, given enough time, they eventually will be conscious and will be able to choose for themselves.

[tarheel91]

Just cleared the first world. This is making the engineer inside me squeal with joy.

[tarheel91]

Downloaded it. Loving it, too.

[tarheel91]

Vicelin said:

irawk said: My two cents: The major argument pro-Abortionists use is that women who got pregnant from rape shouldn’t be forced to carry their child. Serious cases such as rape or serious threat to the mother’s health make up LESS THAN TWO PERCENT of all abortions. Therefore you CANNOT base an argument FOR abortion SOLELY on *serious* cases.

Please don’t confuse pro-abortion with pro-choice ._. there is a huge difference between the two, and it’s kind of insulting when you mesh them together like that.

Also, yes, you have a point. But since my argument isn’t based solely on those serious cases, your point is moot. You are also excluding the percentage of women who get abortions because dispite using contraception, pregnancy happened. They tried their best to have protective sex, but accidents happen because contraceptives aren’t full-proof. Do you think they shouldn’t count because they still don’t have a medical condition or weren’t raped?

Chameleon said: I think one of the main sticking points is where to define “life”… some people say that it’s as soon as the fetus “exists”, and other people don’t define life as starting until the third trimester… :/

I think that it is a “life” as soon as it reaches the embryonic stage, but then even bacteria and cancer have “life”. “Life” doesn’t concern me as much as “conciousness”. Abortions that happen after the fetal stage tend to irk me. Abortions beyond the second and third trimester upset me unless the mother developed a serious medical condition or some other life-changing factor has appeared.

tarheel91 said: This argument only works if you feel the fetus isn’t a living human (and thus has no rights). However, if you think the fetus is a living human, then saying WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE ignores the fundamental right to life the fetus has (trumps right to choose, sorry).

Seriously people, discuss whether or not a fetus is living. That’s the assumption everything hinges on. Everything else is irrelevant.

First, yea, I totally misread the last post, sorry about that xD…

Anyway, down to buisness. I completely disagree that the fetus “right to life” trumps the womans “right to choose”. I find this logic completely irrational. The fetus has no conciousness, comprehensible thought or any idea at all of what is going on. It doesn’t think, it doesn’t feel, and is 100% dependent on the mother carrying it. It is literally attached to her, sharing her body, her food, nutrients, pretty much everything but her pain. Whereas the mother is a concious human being with thoughts, feelings (both physical and mental), a very good idea of what is going on, and get this: her right to life, which includes her right to terminate pregnancy in favor of maintaining the life she currently has. It’s her life, her choice. And until that fetus is no longer 100% dependent on her body and hers alone, that life is connected to her and thus belongs to her.

As for the second part, of course a fetus is alive. Anyone who claims otherwise is in serious denial or is just plain stupid. But like I said to Chameleon, even bacteria and cancer are alive. It sounds like the main argument seems to be concerning the idea of “potential” life, which I think is complete bull. Every living being has “potential” life. Hell, I have “potential” life tomorrow. And the next day, and the next day. Because what am I doing? Living. And what does each day have? Potential, because I could die at any given minute. Most likely at the hands of, guess what? Another human being.

I guess a better way to put it is when does a fetus become a human? Sure it’s living, but as you said, when does it gain the rights that we as humans have? You can argue that they’re completely dependent on their mother, but someone else can point out that so is an infant in many respects. A child’s independence and humanity over time is a spectrum, and as such it’s really hard to define what qualifies as human and what qualifies as organic mass. For everyone it’s going to be different, and it’s hard to say one’s clearly right over another. You clearly feel a fetus isn’t a human until fairly late in a pregnancy, and that’s fine, but others don’t, and every argument you make is going to be subjective. Sure, it’s based on facts, but your (and all arguments in this debate) draw conclusions of their own that are impossible to prove, and are really nothing more than opinion.

I think you misunderstand what I was saying about potential. I was simply trying to stay neutral in the abortion debate itself. I think you can agree that even though you don’t think a fetus is an independent human worthy of its own rights, it’s something entirely closer to a human than an egg sitting in the same woman’s ovaries. It represents an entirely different potential in that, as long as it’s nurtured, it will progress into a human child without any other assistance. It has everything it needs besides the sustenance we rely on ourselves, and that is significant. It doesn’t necessarily make it human, but it makes it markedly different than an egg. That, I feel, is much less debatable. Any woman who’s been pregnant can tell you about the maternal instinct inherent in every woman that comes out. Our unconscious pysche recognizes the importance of it.

I then put “a life” on the other end of the slash for people who believe a fetus is a human the moment it exists.

I think we’ll all agree that at the point it is now a human, the mother has no right to terminate its life (we can all agree that a newborn child is a human with rights, and no mother has the right to kill it). At the same time, before anything that is a human, we all agree the mother has the right to prevent things from progressing (we can all agree the woman has a right to use a condom to prevent sperm from reaching her eggs). Defining where the two meet is the real argument, and it’s difficult because there’s no objective way to approach it.

[tarheel91]

DarkDragoon said: @tartar sorry to be a dick but it’s spelled poll not pole
=/

Yeah, after taking a statistics class, I still TOTALLY have NO idea how to spell “poll.” I apologize for the mistake, but that was kind of unnecesary.

[tarheel91]

Pirkid said: Never take Law: Rights of the Unborn Fetus, it is the WORST course to ever desecrate my eyes.

That’s because you believe a fetus isn’t a living human. Other people do. There’s really nothing concrete about it, either. There’s no scientific way to define when life starts. It’s only the worst course to ever desecrate your eyes if you’re egotistical and refuse to accept that any viewpoint besides your own as reasonable.

I’m not taking sides in this; I’m just trying to point out the real discussion people should be having. Of course, because there is no objective answer, there won’t ever be any definite conclusion.

@DarkDragoon: Yes, that’s why you see all those mothers getting away with murdering their 3 year old kid. *rolls eyes* (I know you’re kidding; I just think it’s too obvious of a joke for me to play along with.)

[tarheel91]

dee32693 said: Lol I don’t. My one major argument is WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

This argument only works if you feel the fetus isn’t a living human (and thus has no rights). However, if you think the fetus is a living human, then saying WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE ignores the fundamental right to life the fetus has (trumps right to choose, sorry).

Seriously people, discuss whether or not a fetus is living. That’s the assumption everything hinges on. Everything else is irrelevant.

[tarheel91]

Cynthia said:

tarheel91 said:

Cynthia said: Nausicaa isn’t obscure at all, I’VE watched it xD

If you’re on VuTales, you don’t represent the average American. It’s an animated movie, originally in Japanese. Most Americans don’t consider watching anything close to that. With online gaming comes more openness to Asian cultures (since lots of our games come from there). It’s no coincidence you see more anime watchers/manga readers on video game sites than anywhere else on the web (aside from anime/manga forums themselves).

I don’t online game, or read very much manga. The closet I come to online gaming is things like OMGPOP.com :/
Anime I refuse to watch, because of crappy subtitles/voice subbing.
And I’m Canadian xD

I assumed you played online games because this site is the successor of MMOTales.com, a website based around MMO game blogging. I apologize. Still, I stand behind my point. The great majority of people haven’t seen any of those movies. Conduct a random poll if you want (don’t ask your friends, as they share similar interests). Also, Nasuicaa is technically anime.

Quality subtitles just take a bit of looking for. It’s very rare I can’t find a good sub.

@Reve: Yeah, most of it sucks, but that’s how it’s always been. Typically there are 1-2 amazing shows each season (this last season it was Bakemonogatori and Tokyo Magnitude 8.0; the season before that it was Eden of the East; the season before that it was Casshern Sins and ToraDora). There are always a few diamonds buried in the rough.

[tarheel91]

Cynthia said: Nausicaa isn’t obscure at all, I’VE watched it xD

If you’re on VuTales, you don’t represent the average American. It’s an animated movie, originally in Japanese. Most Americans don’t consider watching anything close to that. With online gaming comes more openness to Asian cultures (since lots of our games come from there). It’s no coincidence you see more anime watchers/manga readers on video game sites than anywhere else on the web (aside from anime/manga forums themselves).

[tarheel91]

Vicelin said:

tarheel91 said:

Vicelin said:

DarkDragoon said:

Vicelin said:

DarkDragoon said:

Vicelin said:

DarkDragoon said: Course abortion does lead to a general lack of caring whether or not they do get preggers since all they have to do is get that abortion ^_^

I know this is a fallacy, I just can’t remember the goddamn name. Nevertheless, it’s a fallacy. Abortion –/–> girls not caring wether they get pregnant or not. It’s absolutely nothing like “whoops, guess I need an abortion, oh well!”…abortion is just like any other medical procedure: it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars and can have terrible side-effects. It’s not a decision made lightly.

For the rich girls aint too much of a problem

So then your statement completely neglects the ones who aren’t, which probably accounts for more then half the abortions in the uninted states. My point still stands.

They can get enough money somehow ^_^

What I’d really like to know is how this relates at all to the difficult emotional and life-changing decision of having or not having a baby. Why would a woman with a restricted or barely livable income carelessly get herself pregnant when she didn’t want to be in the first place and knowing full well that abortions cost hundreds of dollars out of their own paycheck because insurance doesn’t cover it? I really don’t like the assumptions you are making here.

tarheel91 said:

Zappy said:

tarheel91 said:

Zappy said: I agree, I doubt anyone who says “adoption is an option” knows anything about the life of an orphan. Most people do not realize how sad of an experience the life of an orphan is. Of course, a mother is not going to give any love for a child she got from surprise buttsex, and is going to throw that person in a daycare center, and assuming the rapist is in jail. That person does not have any parents. I read some books about this once, one of those include a book called the Great Gilly Hopkins, where a child could grow up in life and find her parents, but then realizes her biological parents do not want anything to do with her. Sad.

Wut? Last time I checked, anal couldn’t impregnate anyone. I didn’t know there was someone on the internet naive enough to not know what buttsex actually was. The other thing that angered me was your gross generalization of all rape victims, suggesting that they’re incapable of loving or raising a child. Just because they weren’t planning on having a child doesn’t automatically mean they should or need to have an abortion.

Oh, and I doubt you know anything about orphans either, so please don’t be hypocritical and call out others on the same thing (FYI: fictional novels don’t make you an expert on the subject).

Ok, but my point is, many women do not want to bring up a child that they got from rape.

Rape doesn’t factor into the equation. It doesn’t make them magically hate the baby. What factors into it is their readiness to care and provide for a baby. That is independent of whether someone was raped or was simply knocked up.

Actually, sadly it does. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience, and while every baby may be born with a clean slate and the potential to be nothing like their parents, some women simply can’t emotionally accept the child of their rapist and want absolutely nothing to do with it. That child is a connection to a traumatic experience that they can’t mentally accept, and while it’s always possible to take the high road and overcome the trauma, it’s not always possible nor is it something anyone should expect them to do. I know for a fact that I don’t ever want to go through pregnancy. If I were ever raped and lucky enough to survive to find out that I was pregnant because of it, I couldn’t fathom keeping the child. I just went through a terrible experience and going through a second one just isn’t going to help.

I should probably revise my statement/clarify it. Zappy claimed that the majority of women would feel that way. While I agree some might be so traumatically affected by the situation as to have issues with the child itself, it certainly wouldn’t be the majority of women.

Also, never say never when it comes to having kids. I don’t care how old you are; I’ve heard way too many stories of women changing their minds about that pretty deep in their lives for various reasons (unless you have some health issue, which is a bit different). There’s something about that maternal instinct.

Maybe the reason you’ve heard so many of those stories is because those women in particular have the strength to actually talk about it. Just because you hear from them the most doesn’t mean they are the majority. Most rape victims aren’t very eager to share the experience, and if they choose to terminate the child, even less so. They don’t want anyone to know. They want to start their life over. I’m more convinced that the stories you’ve heard so often are delivered from a minority of rape victims who are blessed with optimism and an outgoing nature, the same type of people who are more willing to share their experiences, which is why you hear from them the most. It just seems so much more likely.

You misread what I typed. The first paragraph was addressing rape victims. The second paragraph was addressing your comment of “knowing for a fact [you] don’t ever want to go through pregnancy.”

Both of us are basing our comments entirely from secondhand knowledge, so it’s really hard to say definitively which way it’d go. I’m basing my idea off of the maternal instinct inherent in females. It’s one thing to talk about having an abortion if you’re raped hypothetically. It’s quite another to talk about it when there’s the potential for life/a life (trying to stay out the abortion debate itself) inside of you.

[tarheel91]

@MasterCheeze: While I agree that’s a general trend throughout history, I think it’s been reversed for the HD consoles this generation. With the massive development costs that come with a game for either/both of the HD twins, it’s simply impossible to make a length adventure and keep the game profitable. Even games like Halo 3 and CoD4 had incredibly short single player experiences despite the knowledge that the games would sell insanely well. With all the new gamers’ obsessing over online multiplayer (lol real life friends?), it’s easy to get away with it too. HD games that are epic in scale (i.e. FFXIII or GT5) require huge development times, and need massive sales to just break even.

Your trend still holds true for the Wii. For example, the Conduit, which has only sold a fraction of the aforementioned games features a campaign that is nearly twice as long and was profitable, too.

[tarheel91]

Normally I’d say 5 Centimeters Per Second, The Place Promised in Our Early Days, and Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, but people here actually watch Japanese movies, so they no longer count. Other than that, I saw 500 Days of Summer (limited viewing), and it was one of the best romantic comedies I’ve ever seen. Other possibly obscure movies I’ve seen include Sense and Sensibility, this one Italian movie about some poet who was exiled to some podunk island off the coast of Italy, and several movies in Spanish (for Spanish class) whose names I never bothered remembering. One was about illegal immigrants, the other about revolution in Guatemala.

Also, I’ve seen the Prestige; it was really good.

[tarheel91]

Similarly, Naoaki, I can go, at least?

I think that’s the first one to make more sense after the translation than before.

You should be able to guess this one:
12 something, this is what he said?

[tarheel91]

“The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog” has no equilibrium!

[tarheel91]

Vicelin said:

DarkDragoon said:

Vicelin said:

DarkDragoon said:

Vicelin said:

DarkDragoon said: Course abortion does lead to a general lack of caring whether or not they do get preggers since all they have to do is get that abortion ^_^

I know this is a fallacy, I just can’t remember the goddamn name. Nevertheless, it’s a fallacy. Abortion –/–> girls not caring wether they get pregnant or not. It’s absolutely nothing like “whoops, guess I need an abortion, oh well!”…abortion is just like any other medical procedure: it costs hundreds to thousands of dollars and can have terrible side-effects. It’s not a decision made lightly.

For the rich girls aint too much of a problem

So then your statement completely neglects the ones who aren’t, which probably accounts for more then half the abortions in the uninted states. My point still stands.

They can get enough money somehow ^_^

What I’d really like to know is how this relates at all to the difficult emotional and life-changing decision of having or not having a baby. Why would a woman with a restricted or barely livable income carelessly get herself pregnant when she didn’t want to be in the first place and knowing full well that abortions cost hundreds of dollars out of their own paycheck because insurance doesn’t cover it? I really don’t like the assumptions you are making here.

tarheel91 said:

Zappy said:

tarheel91 said:

Zappy said: I agree, I doubt anyone who says “adoption is an option” knows anything about the life of an orphan. Most people do not realize how sad of an experience the life of an orphan is. Of course, a mother is not going to give any love for a child she got from surprise buttsex, and is going to throw that person in a daycare center, and assuming the rapist is in jail. That person does not have any parents. I read some books about this once, one of those include a book called the Great Gilly Hopkins, where a child could grow up in life and find her parents, but then realizes her biological parents do not want anything to do with her. Sad.

Wut? Last time I checked, anal couldn’t impregnate anyone. I didn’t know there was someone on the internet naive enough to not know what buttsex actually was. The other thing that angered me was your gross generalization of all rape victims, suggesting that they’re incapable of loving or raising a child. Just because they weren’t planning on having a child doesn’t automatically mean they should or need to have an abortion.

Oh, and I doubt you know anything about orphans either, so please don’t be hypocritical and call out others on the same thing (FYI: fictional novels don’t make you an expert on the subject).

Ok, but my point is, many women do not want to bring up a child that they got from rape.

Rape doesn’t factor into the equation. It doesn’t make them magically hate the baby. What factors into it is their readiness to care and provide for a baby. That is independent of whether someone was raped or was simply knocked up.

Actually, sadly it does. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience, and while every baby may be born with a clean slate and the potential to be nothing like their parents, some women simply can’t emotionally accept the child of their rapist and want absolutely nothing to do with it. That child is a connection to a traumatic experience that they can’t mentally accept, and while it’s always possible to take the high road and overcome the trauma, it’s not always possible nor is it something anyone should expect them to do. I know for a fact that I don’t ever want to go through pregnancy. If I were ever raped and lucky enough to survive to find out that I was pregnant because of it, I couldn’t fathom keeping the child. I just went through a terrible experience and going through a second one just isn’t going to help.

I should probably revise my statement/clarify it. Zappy claimed that the majority of women would feel that way. While I agree some might be so traumatically affected by the situation as to have issues with the child itself, it certainly wouldn’t be the majority of women.

Also, never say never when it comes to having kids. I don’t care how old you are; I’ve heard way too many stories of women changing their minds about that pretty deep in their lives for various reasons (unless you have some health issue, which is a bit different). There’s something about that maternal instinct.

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