This is probably the calmest rant you will ever read from me. It might not even qualify as a rant ._.
In my sociology class, we had a very short debate involving the foundation of America being based on Christianity, and that because of this foundation it is justified that our currency say "God", and that it is justified to uphold Christian morals in our laws. The reason it was so short was because one boy said "but this country was founded on Christian beliefs, so gay marriage shouldn't be allowed", and one lady said "no, it should be because no matter what this country was founded on, we have separation of church and state", and then the teacher said, "well, it was founded on Christianity, so it makes sense", and then that was it.
I didn't even bother to say anything after that, even though I had planned on it. But that debate pretty much ended with that one sentence. I was kind of annoyed.
I doubt that anyone will deny that without Christianity, America would not be what it is today. But we have to remember why our founding fathers and the original colonies came here in the first place: to escape persecution. Christian persecution, to be specific. Their goal, and wish, was for this country to have complete separation of church and state so that it would not end up like the England of the time.
It is also important to remember that our founding fathers were Deists. Merriam Webster describes Deism as:
Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington all exercised Deist tendencies at some point in recorded history. The most important case being that they were opposed to the Bible. Yes, they do believe in God, but also that He does not concern himself with our daily lives, and does not communicate with us directly, not by supernatural means nor scripture.
The logic seems to be that because a majority of the original colonies and founders were Christian, that must mean that this country was founded directly on their religious beliefs. I would go far enough to call this a fallacy. First of all, this country was founded for the purpose of separating religious institution and beliefs from law entirely, hence the emphasis on separation of church and state, so where exactly would religious beliefs come into play here? Second of all, it makes the assumption that all sense of morality derives from religious beliefs, which isn’t true, since it was the absence of religion in morality which allowed our founding fathers to even think of separation of church and state to begin with. Separation of church and state would not be possible without the ability to have a working moral compass outside of religious influence.
From Encyclopedia Britannica:
So our common law (ex, institution of a jury and the right to speedy trial) derived from Roman law. So since our country also appears to be founded on Roman laws, does that mean it is actually founded on Pagan beliefs? Interesting 😮
The declaration of independence, which is what many people use to defend the stance that our country was founded on Christianity, does in fact mention 'God'. But there again is another fallacy. Does the 'God' in the DoI specifically translate to the 'Christian God'? Nope. The Declaration of Independence itself says that it is describing:
The Declaration of Independence was also written before the States had even been founded. In summary, this country was founded on one simple thing: freedom. Need I say more?
And, wow, I just had some major Deja Vu. That was cool.
On a lighter note, the entire debate in a nutshell:
God that cracks me up.
(Please don't be offended if you're Christian xD…for the record, I have absolutely no religious affiliation what-so-ever (and no, I'm not an atheist either), I'm like a…neutral country during wartime. I think it is possible that there isn't a higher power, but it is also possible that there is. Now that I've probably left you all mindfucked, I'll end this blog).
64 Comments
I went to a Christian school, I did all that shit… But I was always like that. All the teachers bitched on me to be more “Godlike” and I was like “Back off, bitches~!” and yah…
I’m apparently a Christian, or so everybody thinks, but inside I don’t really care. I’m a “neutral country”, as you said 😛
Yay for neutral countries 😀
I was raised Christian. But then I had so much fun learning about other religions, and began wondering how any one religion could possibly be more valid than the other, and…yea, that was it for spirituality o_o;
I’m always amazed at how each of your blog sounds like an essay.
No offense or anything.
xD
hey i’m christian =O
but i believe that everyone is right in a way. like the blind men touching only one art of the elephant, all the religons are touching only one part and aren’t quite getting the BIGGER PICTURE
Each of the founding fathers believed that Christianity was ridiculous and should be abolished. Benjamin Franklin said that light houses were more useful than churches. The country was NOT founded on Christianity, people just believe it so because it’s just such a huge aspect of American culture. :/
I believe this country was founded based on freedom, and it was primarily because people were pissed at the taxes the British implemented. :3
Dee~ yea, that’s pretty much it xD
David~ yea, I really don’t see how people come to that conclusion. It being a huge part of our culture doesn’t mean the country was founded on it. And it was founded on freedom, I don’t understand why people insist on bringing religion into the mix :
*lol* Well it sounds like your teacher was uninformed too. This sort of thing needs to be taught better in schools.
Slightly off topic:Though many of my beliefs are the same as those of most Christians, most Christians wold spurn me as a heretic 😛 For instance, my belief that God actually does want to have individual contact and relationship with all of His children is a little too much for most people. When I say “I talked to God today,” most people look at me like I’m a complete lunatic.
Back on topic: Though I personally believe that homosexual relationships are against God’s law, I do not believe that they should be illegalized. The laws of man have never conformed completely to the laws of God or any other religion, and indeed, there is no need to. I believe that the laws of man need to cover the basic principles (Such as the ones that almost every religion agree on) and leave the more complicated matters to the churches and institutions themselves. Though a church may spurn a homosexual person, there is no need, and indeed no right for the authorities to take any action or incur any punishment upon the person. If, indeed, God truly does exist, then He can take care of it in the end. There’s no need for us as “mere” humans to play the just hand of God and decide what His rules are.
P.S. / Edit: After reading the beginning of my post, some of you may think me a blind religious zealot, and that I was born and raised in Christianity and it is the only thing I’ve ever known. While this is true, I have given much thought to other religions, and I do believe that they can be just as valid as Christianity. In fact, many religions worship the same God as I do, Muslims, Jews, even many Hindus have accepted Jesus as “a god.” However, I have had personal encounters with God that no amount of logic or persuasion can explain away or cause me to deny what I have seen and felt. Supernatural things are out there, no matter what those whose minds are bound by logic say.
I’m not Christian.
But I know very nice people who ARE Christian.
😀
Btw, the blog IS calm. >__<
I think it’s fine to believe that, Rawk. Really, I do. I mean, whose business would it be to call you a heretic or lunatic because of your beliefs? You’re not imposing your religion on anyone and telling them to believe what you believe, so people should just live and let live. I let people do what they want as long as it isn’t doing any harm mentally or physically to others. It’s none of anyone’s business to inject their opinion otherwise.
So no, I don’t think you are a blind religious zealot. And I do think it is possible that supernatural things are out there. I say that, even though I have had what I think may have been supernatural experiences. But the “may” is what always gets me. They may not have been supernatural experiences at all, so since I have absolutely no evidence telling me that they were supernatural experiences, I don’t want to jump to the conclusion that they must have been. So I remain in-between.
@irawk
And yet, the Koran effectively states that the infidels that do not convert are to be eliminated.
[offtopic]
See, this is what I don’t get about religion. All religions start with good fundamentals, and teaches good moral values, but then turn nasty later on when people are supposed to “follow” this religion otherwise can go die in hell. It’s the same principle a lot of those TV people you see on Sundays are using. They say, buy my book! or buy my DVD! YOU MUST GET THIS BOOK/DVD/PRODUCT to follow god! <- Why? Why do people go buy this stuff, and think that through buying this, they'll automatically get out of purgatory or something? It’s like indulgences. I just don’t get it. Back in the days, Luther raged for reform when he saw Tetzel selling indulgences to the POOR. It wasn’t only you that could get out, but the whole family! “When a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs.” <- Bs. Plus, the Church is literally backwards. Pope Pius IX’ Syllabus of Errors condemned democracy, liberalism, and scientific discoveries. How the heck could the United States be founded on something that has literally said that democracy was a bad thing?
The United States fell into a huge trench during President George Bush’s Presidency because it became a religious country. Things were based off faith alone, and there wasn’t any rationality. If you compared to the state of the country to what it was back in the day, I’d say a lot of things are actually worse. It’s sad really.
[/offtopic]
What I hate about religion is how people do push it onto other people. They use God as an excuse for their own troubles. Gays should die because God said so. You should buy my DVD because God said so. You should go kill yourself because God said so.
I’m not saying that religious people are complete lunatics, but… it’s like racism, if you are raised that way, it’s a part of you I suppose. If you were raised to hate people with green hair, chances are, you’ll hate people with green hair. Only the exceptional can transcend that primitive failure of human beings.
See, I don’t believe that Hell is the Devil’s domain. If what happened in the New Testament is true, and Jesus took all sin upon himself, then Sin (Or whatever else you want to call it) cannot condemn anyone to Hell. I believe that Hell is simply a tool that God created to bring about his bigger picture. I also don’t agree with modern “Indulgences” or using God as an “excuse” for anything. If God wants someone to do something, He will tell them directly, as long as they’re willing to listen. If they’re not, that’s their problem, and no one has the right to try to shove it down their throats.
Yes, some people think that Jesus took Sin out, and so there’s no sin. But what if you murder someone? What if it’s by accident? That’s not a sin?
But how, not why, do you believe that God is just there to listen to everyone? Is that not the same as believing Santa Claus? Is that not the same as believing in Leprechauns?
I don’t get it. I just don’t get it.
I didn’t say Jesus took sin away, I said he took it upon himself. Murdering someone is still a sin, but it will not condemn you to hell. You will, however, still have to deal with the consequences of your actions in this life, thanks to the laws of Man.
I believe that God is there to be a friend. I know this may sound crazy, but I have literally had conversations with Him. He’s just like the best friend I never had. You may think that he’s my Imaginary Friend and I just call him God, but he’s real. He surprises me all the time, makes me laugh, comforts me when I’m sad, and just hangs out with me.
Lol, just yesterday I had a debate with my friend (a Christian) over religions and stuff like that, it was pretty fun C:
iRawk, you’re probably one of the coolest Christians I’ve ever met, just thought you should know.
David~ Christianity has always been riddled with inconsistencies. Like how so many of its symbols and holidays were taken directly from Pagan religions…the same religions that they later condemned as devil worship. Every time I think of that, I just can’t help but laugh. But many religions have inconsistencies like these, and really I don’t see much of a need to pay attention to them and point them out. Religions are upheld and practiced by humans, religious texts are translated, mistranslated and skewed by humans for centuries, and everyone interprets religious messages differently, so it’s common sense that there will be inconsistency and contradictions.
Well, some people do believe that there is no sin. ._.
And, see, the voice in your head is your brain. Wouldn’t an imaginary friend be the same as that voice? What makes you think that the voice is God? 🙁
[offtopic]
People like Luther believes that the only way to worship is through faith alone, he also stated that people should simply abandon all else and think of God. But how where would science be in the equation? Where would technology be in the equation?
The world is still in a ditch, and it takes forever for a population to grow out of it. When the world was flat, and people started introducing the fact that the Earth was round, they were persecuted like madmen. When Copernicus introduced the theory of heliocentrism, he was too afraid to publish his book because he knew he would get executed for heresy.
In my honest opinion, religion is holding a bunch of people back from actually accomplishing something. Religion is that nagging voice in the back of your head that says, God doesn’t like it when humans try to play God. But what if that could help people? Surely curing people out of their ailments is better than watching them suffer, because God made humans imperfect?
I think at one point, religion will have served its purpose. Technology will have probably done 1 of the two following:
1) Destroyed all humans on this planet.
2) Brought humans to a new “stage” of humanity, where simply believing is no longer needed.
Gah, freaking IE. Anyway, I was going to add:
My parents are religious people. They believe that there is a God, and that he made the Earth, bla bla bla.
But I’m not, not at all. I’m not atheist, I just think that religion is not something that’s necessary. Practical things in life are necessary. REAL things are necessary, not a figment of humans’ imagination.
What if Jesus was a lunatic? What if the miracles were blown out of proportion, like the H1N1 virus is right now? Hundreds of people die from different strains of diseases in other countries, but they don’t get the coverage.
Of course you could counter argue that, but hey, how are you sure? Science emerged as a higher power in the 1800s, and can’t predict that accurately back then.
Why aren’t novels real? Why aren’t the books you read everyday real? Because they’re imagined by people. What if the Bible was the same thing? Also, many documents were forged for personal purposes. The Donation of Constantine was proven to be a forgery by Lorenzo Valla through social sciences.
*slaps David with a smelly gym sock* Stop degrading what he believes in noob. You yourself seem to be shoving your beliefs! I don’t know how cause it isn’t like you’re SAYING it but in a combination of almost all your comments I’m getting the feeling of “Stop believing in stupid crap, idiot. It isn’t real.”
Be more like Vicey plz.
Hey, I don’t feel degraded in any way. He has every right to ask that question. It’s something that I just know. I can’t explain it, I can’t scientifically prove it. But that’s the thing about Faith: You just have to know it.
*slaps David with a smelly gym sock* Stop degrading what he believes in noob. You yourself seem to be shoving your beliefs! I don’t know how cause it isn’t like you’re SAYING it but in a combination of almost all your comments I’m getting the feeling of “Stop believing in stupid crap, idiot. It isn’t real.”
Be more like Vicey plz.
I’m not, I’m just asking to see how does he know? How do these priests and bishops claim that they know and we, the people, don’t? Are they more intelligent than us? Are they a higher species? Why?
And again, hm, is faith good? If that really helps someone get through, sure, but… sigh. Most of the time, especially if you look back in history, it’s been misused. The peasants killed people because of Luther’s ideas, and although they were abused, murder is not much better.
I agree, history has most definitely given Faith a bad rep. The problem is, people tend to falsely put their faith in the religious leaders, the priests and bishops. This will always lead to destruction, because even if that leader has good intentions, what God tells them may not apply to everyone. It is each and every individual’s responsibility to connect with God and determine the truth for him/herself. This is not to say that God does not speak to others through someone, as in the cases of Biblical figures like Elijah, but what God speaks through others sometimes applies only to another individual or a specific group of people. Blind faith in another human being is only asking for downfall.
And now comes the question of dooooom.
Why does God speak through others if he could just talk to everyone individually?
Sometimes, I just want to go screaming down the streets because I don’t understand why.
Because not everyone is willing to listen. Many are too bound in “Give me proof” mentality to hear, others want to be able to blame God for everything that’s wrong in their life. God does talk to everyone individually… The fact is, only a few people really want to hear Him.
I love how he slips in a “Smak Dem Mexicans Down” in the middle of the song xD
uhh….yeah…-backs out-
I used to be a lot like David and demand proof or an explanation for everything in religion that didn’t make sense. I’ve stopped doing that because 1. the answers are never consistent because religion is so subjective for each individual, and 2. Faith doesn’t, and shouldn’t need to be explained or justified. That’s not how faith works. Those of us who don’t have it and don’t understand it shouldn’t hammer those who do with questions whose answers obviously don’t make sense to us (or else we’d have faith ourselves, amirite?). And those of us who do have faith shouldn’t hammer those who don’t with questions regarding lack of faith, since it won’t make much sense to them either. It’s so much easier (and MUCH less frustrating) to just accept them as mysteries, and that maybe we will be able to understand later on in life (or after death).
Dragoon~ at what time in the video does he say that? o.o;
Aaand offtopic
LOL, that was beautiful!
I… think we should ALL get off the topic of religion. Before someone gets offended and we get separated. We should leave this kind of stuff OUTSIDE, but I wanna get my two-bits in.
I’m Christian, and I believe in God. I agree with Vice. IMO, David demands too much from people with a faith in their “God”. It almost sounds like he’s trying to offend people who believe in God. I clearly remember him saying that a talking snake is preposterous, don’t question me, I have it on record. I’m fine with other religions, as long as they don’t question mine. I think most of us would agree that David’s a bit.. too blunt with the way he approaches religion.
As for this whole homosexuality thing…
In Christian terms, God created man with free will to do as we please.
In Atheist terms, it’s a free country, and we should be allowed to do what we please.
Either way, you can’t restrict someone from something they want. Either way, taking this matter into your own hands and saying homosexuality is wrong would be hypocrisy. Yes, religion is subjective, but if you have nothing to do with the faith, I strongly suggest that you mind your own business and don’t question it. If you continue to, I strongly suggest counseling, and maybe questioning your own faith, as you have no right to say someone’s wrong.
What I’ve learned from religion is that even if you don’t believe in the entirety of the religion yourself, you should still take a look at the noble things in the religion, like the values and whatnot(Killing infidels isn’t a good thing though). Jesus teaches a lot of things we can do to be a better person. These things are overlooked very often as being “crazy Christian talk”, but I suggest you take a look at them.
…Yeah, that’s what I have to say.
i’m christian too. but the faith is ‘fading away’ 😛 i guess i’m kinda like david. i need proof to understand it, even though i’ve had two instances where i’ve seen an angel and heard god. at least thats what i think. its just way too hard for me to believe something that i don’t even know thats true.
For other religions, to me they’re equally possible to be real.
I agree with irawk and vice for these matters. 😛
I quit on God after 3 years of going to a Mormon church.
If he does exist though, I don’t think it’s want to meet him.
Lol I once had a girlfriend who was a Mormon… They scare me now… You’re not allowed to have Tea or Coffee or Soda or anything like that because it’s “Not healthy” O____o;;;
@Lithium
Don’t QUESTION it? DON’T QUESTION IT?
What the fuck? If you simply go ahead and live life by not questioning it, you’re sadly ignorant. Shit, it’s like saying the United States won the fucking Iraq War, but that never happened, because all it did was make the whole thing WORSE.
I’m blunt about religion because religion has too many loop-holes to be even slightly consistent. Shit man, if you believe in a talking snake, and that babies can be born without intercourse prior, and that paying the Church can get you to heaven, that’s messed up. I stand corrected when I say that, it’s just fucking absurd. And that’s not even the start of all the shit the Church promoted.
And I ask you, did you finish reading the Bible? I finished a few books, and they’re very sad, literally sad, not that other sad. If you did, great, but if you didn’t, I’m assuming you believe what others have told you. And these other people probably heard it from other people, who heard it from other people, who might’ve just invented this entire thing, or glorified it, like the media does today.
If you think I wasn’t religious, tell you what, I’ve been there, I’ve done that. I was a Christian for 2 years from 6-8. Atheist in the middle. I was a Jehovah’s Witness for 2 years from 11-13, thought it was completely ridiculous. Went with Scientology for 2 months, had a laugh about it later when I did research. And now I just think that we don’t know, and we’ll never know. Anything revolving around religion is from beliefs from the bronze age. Humanity has evolved, people. As I said, my parents are religious people, but I’m not, because once you go beyond the limitations people have set upon you, you learn about stuff that you wouldn’t have if you never took the initiative.
If people can just stick it to THEMSELVES, and believe in God, and stop at that, then believing is awesome. It’s only organized religion that’s not cool, because it separates people, people fight wars over it, and shit, people blow themselves up because of it. If you think that religion is a good thing, take a look at all the bad things that it caused, then compare it with the good. The ratio is 95:5. The French Wars of Religion, the Inquisitions throughout history, the Hundred Years War, all of that because of religion. Massacres, suicide bombings, purges, insane cults of personality, all of that stemmed from religion.
There could be two categories of people, those who believe, and those who don’t know. Not Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Zwinglists, Puritans, Jesuits, Jews, Lollards, etc. All of this is just promoting discrimination. Christians vs. Muslims. Jews vs. Muslims. Religion vs. Religion.
I know I’m rambling a lot, so I’ll conclude this once and for all for me.
Humanity is stupid, we’re all stupid, why? Because nothing is ever perfect. It’s not normal for a single species to be perfect because that would kill off every other species on the planet. We could however, raise the standards for all species on this planet, and getting rid of religion is probably one of them.
Okay Dave, here’s why you don’t question it.
It has absolutely nothing to do with you. Yes, I have read the bible. EVERY BOOK. All 66. Old, and New testament.
You’re comparing the Iraq War to Religion. It’s obvious that the United States didn’t win the Iraq War, but you can’t compare the two. The Iraq War was waged over greed.
If you think that not questioning makes you ignorant, then that’s your opinion. Whether you like it or not, people will keep believing what they want to, and your talk of absurdity will barely effect religion as a whole. There’s no point in arguing.
As for what you said about babies being born with no prior intercourse, if you think it’s that absurd, keep it to yourself.
That’s the bottom line. Keep it to yourself, what’s the point?
If you call me ignorant, or naive, or whatever the fuck you call me, you’re just making yourself look worse, obsessing over something so big that one person can’t possibly hope to conquer.
Aaand iRawk is officially leaving the conversation. I can see that we have stopped having an open minded, friendly conversation and the shoving-your-point-down-their-throat stuff has started…
What has the argument turned into . 😐
David, you’re being a bit insensitive (not what anyone wants to hear coming from me, but whatever).
The whole point of faith is that you don’t question it. That’s why it’s called faith. Belief based on conviction. There is NO evidence, NO ONE can prove the existence of god to you, so stop demanding it. Just because there is no evidence doesn’t automatically mean that everyone should drop their personal beliefs and follow your logic.
Yes, in a lot of cases faith DOES lead to ignorance. But do you think that iRawk and Lithium are ignorant people? Before you knew that they believed in God and had faith in something that has no evidence to its existence, did you think they were ignorant? If the answer is no, then I don’t need to explain how prejudice and ridiculous that is, because it pretty much screams it.
And humanity hasn’t evolved all that much. The human psyche hasn’t changed. The only things that have changed are technology, research, and the environments we are raised in. There is so much religious freedom in the world now that me and you should be thankful that we don’t have to live in an age where non-believers were stoned to death or burned at stakes, or have to keep our religious thoughts hidden completely from society to avoid punishment. I’m so sick of people being intolerant to other religions, because it’s that same intolerance that has killed so many innocent people in history.
No one here is questioning your lack of faith. No one here is dogging on you because you follow logic and reason above things with no evidence. NO ONE is scrutinizing your personal beliefs, so stop doing it to others. It’s extremely unwarranted and totally unnecessary.
If he does exist though, I don’t think it’s want to meet him.
I don’t know much about Mormons. Only that when my friend came out of the closet to her mormon parents, they locked her in her room for three days and told her that she couldn’t come out until she was straight >.>;
Nothing pretty ;_;
*lol* Religious arguments. Buncha’ amateurs. I’m not going to join in though, because I need to get back to my ELE studies.
Since David hasn’t thrown the Problem of Evil at you all already, I’m going to. To be blunt, none of your religions work unless God exists:
1. God exists
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).
9. God cannot exist in the form traditional religion portrays him. He logically contradicts himself.
@ Lithium: Ignorant is defined as “lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned”. We obtain knowledge and learn things by asking questions. People who don’t ask questions are therefore ignorant.
Okay, have fun arguing over it. =/
I try to be a fair person. Sometimes, I realize and am sure, with facts, that a person is wrong. I try to change how they think. Guess what the outcome is?
I get burned.
David, what you’re doing is much too blunt. You’re basically saying “There’s no evidence, therefore, no God.” Let’s say you have a Diamond the size of a fist. If you package this diamond with a beautiful gold-gilded box, the diamond will be lovely. However, let’s say you cover the diamond with your feces instead. No matter how pretty your main fact is, the presentation is poor. You don’t even see a diamond. You just see a pile of sh*t.
That’s what your argument is, David. Personally, I am a weak athiest, but I shake in disapproval in the way you are trying to force people to drop religion.
Munky, I have yet to hear about a God who seeks to prevent all evils on earth. Please tell me which ‘traditional’ God you are referring to, and the evidence that says his purpose is to prevent all evils on earth.
Deists, for one, believe in a God, but also that he does not get involved with humanity in any way, shape or form, and allows nature to take its course. I also share this viewpoint.
I don’t think that the main purpose of God, even the Christian God, was ever to prevent all evil from happening here on Earth (or else why would the Christian religion need the ten commandments, and mention sin so often?). There are of course people who think he does (the Westboro Baptist Church cheers in joy whenever a natural disaster strikes, believing that it’s God trying to get rid of all teh gays) and those who wish he would (those who ask Him for things in prayers). But if it says plainly, in the scripture of that religion, that that Deities purpose is to prevent all evil on Earth, and yet there was evil on earth, people aren’t that stupid– they would understand that either that God does not exist, or that He abandoned them.
If God’s purpose was to prevent all evil, then he would have never let Lucifer into the Garden of Eden. It’s all part of a greater plan that no one human being can possibly comprehend. I, for one, do not ask for a world devoid of Evil, because then it would also be devoid of Will, for it is a human’s choice to be good or evil, the devil does not force them to do it.
Also…
“A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.”
Or, in a version that makes more sense to blondes like me:
1. There exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
3.(Therefore) There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being
All of these assumptions than an omniscient, perfectly good being would prevent all evils, isn’t this in the end just a logical fallacy in and of itself? It’s an assumption that destroys all exceptions.
To bring up another point, in both Christianity and Greek mythology, there existed a time when the world was devoid of all evil thanks to God(s). However, God had given Eve free will, and so she took the apple from the tree, which ultimately created sin and “evil” alongside good. Pandora had been gifted (“made”) with curiosity, and so she opened the box, releasing evil into the world as well.
So at a time in these two religious stories, yes, there existed a time when no evil existed thanks to God(s). But that time is, in their eyes, over. We created evil and sin, and so we must live with it as punishment from God(s).
Sorry, I’m rambling, I’ll shut up now xD
I could argue with everything you’re saying, but I have an exam tomorrow, so I’ll just poke a hole in your most recent point and be on my merry way.
We created ‘Evil’.
God created us.
Therefore God created Evil.
A wholly Good being would not create Evil.
Therefore, if God exists, he is not wholly Good.
Therefore, an all good God, as portrayed by Christian mythology, does not exist.
As far as Christianity goes, aren’t we forgetting the good ‘ol Devil here? Yes, in this particular religion, God created man, but it was the snake (devil, whatever) who convinced Eve to take the apple, which in turn created evil. All God did was give Adam and Eve the ability of independent thought. For Him to constantly intervene and remove all evil from humanity would be taking away that independent thought, and also make the Devil and Hell very, very pointless. In fact they wouldn’t exist.
This is all very fun to think about. Hell, if I were an omniscient, omnipotent, wholly good being, I would still choose not to rid the world of evil. Immorality is, as they say, the morality of those having a better time ;D
Question: Would you want to live in a world devoid of Free Will?
If the world were to be wholly “Good,” then God (or whatever Deity you believe in) would have to control each and every person’s each and every thought, giving them no room to really be them. In order for the world to be wholly “Good,” humanity would be little more than a collection of billions of robotic minds. If you ask me, that’d be REALLY boring.
So I guess that would bring in the whole question of the point of humanity’s existence? .__.;
we were like that in the beginning though…which brings up how Eve couldve have chosen to eat the apple since the ‘snake’ DID give her a choice. i thought we didnt have free will then?
lololol the bible is so confusing xO
Oh, BTW, Vicelin, what you said defines you as an empirical agnostic. Like me. xD
I *lol*ed at the list. C:
Religion over the internet is too complicared. Some one always thinks they right, or attacks others.
I just wish we talk about our beliefs without having people question every little thing.
“Hey there, I think the sky is blue because grass took green”
“Really? I think its because the sky is actually reflecting blue light.”
“Oh, ok.”
DONE
Personally, I am not Christian. I follow Hinduism. But thats not the point. The point is, I like to tell people about my religion. And then I like to hear what they think. If thier fews conflict with mine, so what? Your faith goes where you choose to put it. You cant tell a person to explain why they put thier faith into one place.
My personal pet peeve is when think I do certain things they would never do simply because of my religion. Then, because they would never go and do something like that, they think my religion and I are completely stupid. Not once does a person ever think that sometimes it isnt only religion that defines who we are. =/
Dee~ yea, the Bible is really confusing. I never really believed it when I was a kid being taught it, either, which says something, because I did believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny xD
Pirkid~ The questions you brought up are definitely interesting. Most of the ones related to the Bible I just ignored, though, because I personally think that the Bible was written, revised, and pretty much butchered by man and man alone, which makes it, in my eyes, impossible to have any faith in. If I did believe in the Christian God though, I would probably be a Deist, with the idea that God does not communicate with humans, not even through scripture, and so scripture is inaccurate. And…wait…IT HAS A NAME? I mean, I kind of figured I was slightly agnostic. But I didn’t know there was another technical term that fit xD…
Gujju~ that’s how all of my conversations about religion go (except when it’s a debate topic, lol). I wish all conversations about religion went that way…
… Or our jobs. A lot of grown-ups ask that, I think.
“What do you do?”
And then they judge you by that without even getting to know you. .__.;
Pirkid~ The questions you brought up are definitely interesting. Most of the ones related to the Bible I just ignored, though, because I personally think that the Bible was written, revised, and pretty much butchered by man and man alone, which makes it, in my eyes, impossible to have any faith in. If I did believe in the Christian God though, I would probably be a Deist, with the idea that God does not communicate with humans, not even through scripture, and so scripture is inaccurate. And…wait…IT HAS A NAME? I mean, I kind of figured I was slightly agnostic. But I didn’t know there was another technical term that fit xD…
Gujju~ that’s how all of my conversations about religion go (except when it’s a debate topic, lol). I wish all conversations about religion went that way…
=O That’s what I am!
If the world were to be wholly “Good,” then God (or whatever Deity you believe in) would have to control each and every person’s each and every thought, giving them no room to really be them. In order for the world to be wholly “Good,” humanity would be little more than a collection of billions of robotic minds. If you ask me, that’d be REALLY boring.
You have to define the concept of ‘free will’. Isn’t it just your consciousness’ calculated response taken from all the stimulus you’ve been exposed too since the moment you were created, and so it really isn’t ‘free will’ at all as your actions are based on the mass subconscious effects of everything around you.
Pirkid you are awesome. +1
And yeah, Vicelin, sounds agnostic. =]
“What do you do?”
And then they judge you by that without even getting to know you. .__.;
So true. My technical title at work is “team leader”. It should be “assistant manager”, but corporate wants it to sound more “friendly” and less “imposing”. But you can bet that if someone asked me that question, I would get a completely different response if I said “team leader” instead of “assistant manager”. I do put “assistant manager” on my job applications though, my boss said if I had this same position at any other store that’s what it would be called anyway xD…
“Crush the horrible thing.” – Voltaire.
Deism does sound good though.
I’m amused that even the ‘non-religious’ viewpoints have manymany names, just like the ‘religious’ ones.
I guess because there are many types of…non-religious-ness? xD…
Exactly.
There are various levels of non-belief, if you can believe that. Some people don’t care, some choose jsut not to believe, and some go even towards HATING the theist religions.
And yet, the Koran effectively states that the infidels that do not convert are to be eliminated.
Sorry to say, but you’re totally incorrect.
The Qur’an says that everyone is allowed to follow his/her beliefs, do NOT force religion upon others.
You may have heard what you claim from an idiotic extremist (who all claim all “infidels” must die)
Nice job necroing this. What did you do? Press the random blog button?
And yet, the Koran effectively states that the infidels that do not convert are to be eliminated.
Sorry to say, but you’re totally incorrect.
The Qur’an says that everyone is allowed to follow his/her beliefs, do NOT force religion upon others.
You may have heard what you claim from an idiotic extremist (who all claim all “infidels” must die)
Naw bro, even in the Bible, Jesus was all like, BROS AND HOES, we must eliminate the NON-BULIEVURS HURR. Well, not eliminate, but like, smite. And they’ll burn in hell. For all eternity. Yeah.
herp.