Rational Suicide.

[Vicelin]

I might have posted this on the old forum. I honestly can’t remember. I brought up this debate on Roliana a while back and thought it would be fun to debate it here too. So, yes, I’m copypasta-ing myself.

“ A Calculated Departure“ said: Rational suicide, a coinage dating back nearly a century, has also been called balance-sheet suicide, suggesting that sane individuals can objectively weigh the pros and cons of continued life, and then decide in favor of death.

Personally, I think that this is a pretty understandable subject. I know a lot of people who are normally against suicide, but agree that terminally ill patients should have the choice to be euthanized instead of suffer until the very end. Those of us who own or have owned pets understand the quality of life decision, and how extremely difficult it is for pet owners to make. For one, you need to be completely honest with yourself and objectively examine the health of your pet. This is more difficult than it seems, due to the fact that animals such as Dogs don’t show pain the same way that humans do. But in the end, we realize that it would be best for our poor pet to drift away painlessly via euthanasia, then have them continue to struggle day by day with a poor quality of life.

Understanding that…who is to say that the same quality of life decision cannot be made by an objective human individual when analyzing their own existence?

This is where all of the fun controversy comes in.

I know what a lot of people will say to this. That this is devaluing the human life, that the decision can’t be made in the same way it can for a pet, that there has to be underlying depression that made the person think to end their life. But really, is it? Does it? Really?

“ Article“ said: The subject of a documentary made by his daughter, San Francisco filmmaker Susan Stern, Stern [father] was to himself and his family a rational man committing a rational suicide. They saw a tough individualist, an iconoclast who prided himself on his independent achievements.

But many experts would say there is a good chance Stern lived with undiagnosed depression that clouded his judgment.

When I first read this article, it kind of unsettled me. Not the part about suicide, but the last sentence where “experts” immediately assume “undiagnosed depression”.

And I think, really? A person has to be depressed in order to end their life? It’s not possible for someone to commit rational suicide? It’s not possible for a person to think about dying in a positive light, at all?

As the “rational suicide” note left by Carolyn G. Heilbrun said:

“The journey is over. Love to all.”

There are those on their deathbeds or similar who are able to look straight at death without being overcome by fear, remorse, or depression:

“Now, now my good man, this is no time for making enemies.” — Voltaire (1694-1778), on his deathbed in response to a priest asking that he renounce Satan.

“Why fear death? It is the most beautiful adventure in life.” — Charles Frohman (1860—1915), US theatre producer. Said before going down with the liner Lusitania, alluding to ‘To die will be an awfully big adventure’ from Barrie’s Peter Pan, which Frohman had produced.

“To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.” -Albus Dumbledore

There are people out there who do not view death as something grave and terrible and to be feared. One of the greatest examples of this was explored in, of all things, Harry Potter. Am I the only one who made the connection? When Dumbledore requested that Severus, under certain circumstances, kill him quickly with Avada Kedavra when the time came, since his life was already diminishing quickly because of one of the curses Voldemort’s Horcruxes had placed upon him? Am I the only one who was like, “THANK YOU, J.K. Rowling, for actually illustrating the fact that people who are dying can actually rationalize and request their own death without being some kind of poor, tortured, depressed individual whose ’emotions are overpowering their ability to reason’.

Readers, by the time it was explained in the final Harry Potter book, understood why Dumbledore had made this decision to plan his death. So I ask, is it really so different when the individual makes the same decision, but takes the act of death into his own hands? How come it was acceptible for Snape to fulfill Dumbledore’s wish of death, but if Dumbledore had done it himself, it would have been wrong? Can anyone explain that for me?

Who makes these decisions? Who decides this?

What do I think? Society. Society defines the way we think, the way we interpret. And society tells us that suicide is wrong, terrible, irrational, unjustified, and compulsive.

On one side of the spectrum, we have:

Margaret P. Battin, professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, is a defender of the idea — one she calls, given the aging of the population, “an issue for the coming century.” Rational suicide, says Battin, “represents one of the fullest forms of expression of one’s autonomy. It is the right of people to shape the ends of their lives.”

And on the other:

Daniel P. Sulmasy, philosopher and ethicist at New York Medical College and St. Vincent’s, a Catholic hospital in New York, couldn’t disagree more. “Anyone who is not mentally ill and chooses the irrationality of committing suicide has done something morally wrong.” says Sulmasy. Many other Christian denominations take a like stance.

And I hear so often, “most suicidal persons desperately want to live”.

Then please answer me this: why would someone who secretly so “desperately” wants to live, choose to welcome death and what lies beyond it with open arms, in an act of suicide? Doesn’t that seem a bit contradictory? Doesn’t that seem irrational? Where, exactly, do we cross the line between logical deduction and just plain making up crappy excuses out of self-blame?

“My work is done. Why wait ?” — George Eastman (1854—1932), US inventor and industrialist, suicide note.

“Goodbye, everybody !” — Hart Crane (1899-1932), american poet, suicide note.

“If this is dying, I don’t think much of it.” — Lytton Strachey (1880—1932), British writer.

“When all usefulness is over, when one is assured of an unavoidable and imminent death, it is the simplest of human rights to choose a quick and easy death in place of a slow and horrible one.” — Charlotte Perkins Gilman (1860-1935), writer, suicide note.

“All fled — all done, so lift me on the pyre; The feast is over, and the lamps expire.” — Robert E. Howard (1906-1936), writer, suicide note.

“Dear World, I am leaving you because I am bored. I feel I have lived long enough. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool — good luck.” — George Sanders (1906-1972), actor, suicide note.

“I don’t believe that people should take their own lives without deep and thoughtful reflection over a considerable period of time.” — Wendy O. Williams (1949-1998), punk singer, suicide note.

[Waffle]

I think it’s possible

[AznRiceFan]

I don’t see depression as the underlying root cause. I see your “rational suicide” as a means of giving up under the pretense of rationally deciding your own fate. I won’t comment on euthanasia and its implications, because I myself am still formulating an opinion on it. However, if you’re trying to justify rational suicide when it isn’t a case of life and death, then I have to disagree with you. (By which I mean, for example, someone who may be in a dire financial or personal situation from which there is no escape.)

In those cases I see rational suicide as simply giving up pathetically. Why die? When you die, it’s all over. Nothing will be changed when you’re dead. As long as you’re still alive, there is a chance for you to change things, for things to improve. If you give up and die, there will be nothing left. It will be all over. In these cases suicide is merely a cowardly way of escape from your life’s problems. Of course, some people, like the example of Albus Dumbledore that you decided, for political reasons or whatever choose to be a martyr. All the more power to ya, but that’s probably not applicable to most people on this planet.

[Lithium]

I offer no comment.

[Nass]

-scrolls down-

WHOA! tl;dr!

But uh, don’t commit suicide. Cuz I read one time that if you die with regrets/ sadness, your spirit will keep reliving each memory until Armageddon

[Pirkid]

You don’t know what death is.

Flamboyant authors and famous quotes state that death is a big adventure and should be embraced instead of avoided, but why? What’s wrong with your life that you want to change everything and move on to a place where you have no idea what happens? What if death is the most antagonizing event in our tangible lives? Would you be so eager as you RATIONALIZE a reason to die?

I can’t believe this. You’re attaching a positive light to something we know nothing about, and never will. Ghosts and paranormal activity, that’s all bullshit. Atoms can change their stature at any moment, our world could implode with the collapse of molecules every nano-second. Death is not an ‘adventure’ or a ‘rational decision’, it’s an idiotic mistake.

Sure, if you know that it’s going to happen, by all means, jump off the highest cliff you can to experience it, or hang-glide into a tree, or ski down an avalanche. You’re gonna die sometime in the near future, do it with a bang, I can attest to that. Or if you want a quick, painless death, ask someone to help. But leading a healthy, active life, and deciding to destroy it?

People die every two seconds without the will or power to stop it. People around the world WANT TO LIVE, but they lack food, water, money, shelter. You treat your life like it’s worth nothing. It’s an objective view, sure, you can’t take someone’s life and give it to someone else, but take this classic household example:

You’re eating a plate of dinner, pasta, rice, whatever. You don’t finish it entirly but you are full, so you proceed to throw it out. Then your parents scold you for wasting food, stating kids in Africa lack food.
So? It’s not like I ‘ave an express route to Ethiopia that I can send my plate through and feed some child. But by wasting my food, in my parents eyes, I’m taking away from someone who doesn’t have a chance at food.
Now compare that to your life. If you take it away ‘rationally’, you’re wasting what could have been someone else’s life.

Don’t be so foolish.

[Vicelin]

Nass said: -scrolls down-

WHOA! tl;dr!

But uh, don’t commit suicide. Cuz I read one time that if you die with regrets/ sadness, your spirit will keep reliving each memory until Armageddon

I don’t plan to kill myself >_>; I’m not suicidal. Because if the Hindus are right, then that means I’m stuck in samsara, and I’d really rather not be.

Pirkid said: You don’t know what death is.

Well, no. But neither do you. That’s the fun in it. No one is right, and no one is wrong.

Flamboyant authors and famous quotes state that death is a big adventure and should be embraced instead of avoided, but why?

Because accepting death as something positive instead of something terrible to be avoided at all costs will in general help someone to be less afraid when faced with the unknown. I used to get extremely depressed at the thought of what would happen to me when I die, and every time I was confronted with death I couldn’t handle it and I would have an emotional breakdown. When I accepted the concept of death not as an end, but instead a new beginning, I got over my fear and was able to lead a happier life. Accepting this idea doesn’t automatically mean that the person who accepts it is going to look for a way to end their life sooner. In my case, it just means that when it comes my time for a natural death, I won’t be scared. It just so happens that this idea is also shared by those who commit rational suicide, which is how I can sympathyze with it.

What’s wrong with your life that you want to change everything and move on to a place where you have no idea what happens? What if death is the most antagonizing event in our tangible lives? Would you be so eager as you RATIONALIZE a reason to die?

For the first question, that’s not one I can answer, because I’m not suicidal. I would love to ask someone who has commited rational suicide and find out in detail how they would answer that, but my little brother broke my Ouija board (sorry, that was a lame joke). Anyway.

As for the second question, there is really no way to know that, so I don’t have an opinion to offer.

I can’t believe this. You’re attaching a positive light to something we know nothing about, and never will.

Better then attaching negativity and fear to it, methinks.

Ghosts and paranormal activity, that’s all bullshit.

That’s a possibility, but there is no evidence to prove or disprove them, just like how there is no way to prove or disprove a God, because these things can’t be measured.

Atoms can change their stature at any moment, our world could implode with the collapse of molecules every nano-second. Death is not an ‘adventure’ or a ‘rational decision’, it’s an idiotic mistake.

I wonder if you’ve ever read about the EPR paradox. There are elements of the atom that are, much like the paranormal, a mystery in quantum mechanics.

As for what death is and isn’t, I think the idea that it’s an “idiotic mistake” is kind strange, but if you want to think of it that way and it puts you at ease, then go ahead.

Sure, if you know that it’s going to happen, by all means, jump off the highest cliff you can to experience it, or hang-glide into a tree, or ski down an avalanche. You’re gonna die sometime in the near future, do it with a bang, I can attest to that. Or if you want a quick, painless death, ask someone to help. But leading a healthy, active life, and deciding to destroy it?

Not everyone has the luxury of leading a healthy, happy, active life. Some people are born knowing how and when they are going to die because of an incurable disease. Some people are born into poverty or other unfavorable situations. Some people live their lives in physical pain that is barely manageable, but everyone around them expects them to stay alive and trapped in that pain until the very end, because a natural death is the only “good” death, and we selfishly want to keep them here as long as possible because when they do die, it will be be painful for US. Fear of death and appreciation of longevity are culturally embedded in our society, but that doesn’t mean we’re always right in our intentions.

While I’m listing examples, what about captured soldiers? If there is no means of escape and the choice is between letting the enemy torture you until you die or doing it quickly yourself, who has the right to tell them not to?

People die every two seconds without the will or power to stop it.

Sure, but think about what the world would be like if we DID have the power to stop death. The planet we live on would run out of natural resources, and while maybe longevity would increase, quality of life would dramatically decrease.

People around the world WANT TO LIVE, but they lack food, water, money, shelter. You treat your life like it’s worth nothing.

I understand the want to live, and I don’t think anything is wrong with that, but there is a point where when taken to extremes it becomes more harmful to society then good. My point is that I also understand the decision some to choose an early death, and that while I would not reach this conclusion myself, it’s not my decision nor anyone elses to make for them.

I never said that my life was worth nothing. I personally find life enjoyable and interesting, but not everyone lives a life like mine. As for the example you gave, I don’t see how it relates to the topic at all, but maybe I’m just confused. Like you said, lives can’t be traded or measured and distributed to people in the same way that food can, and wether suicide is the “wasting” of a life is totally subjective and not everyone will answer the same.

If you take it away ‘rationally’, you’re wasting what could have been someone else’s life.

Don’t be so foolish.

This makes absolutely no sense. “Life” isn’t something that can be simply given, there is no way to literally pass the one you have to someone else, so there really isn’t a way to “waste” it like that.

Anyway, I’d also like to post the response of a friend of mine. They wrote this for me when I brought up the topic, and I’m pretty terrible at putting my thoughts into words, so this might clear up what exactly my thoughts on suicide are:

I suspect some of the various taboos concerning suicide arise from our culture’s rather inadequate treatment of the reality of death, dying, and human mortality. We obsess over the appearances of youth by pressuring men and women always to look younger than they are instead of appreciating the aging process for what it is. We shut our elders away in nursing homes instead of giving them the position of honor and reverence that their wisdom deserves. Our funeral customs as well mask the face of death with beautifying dead bodies instead of showing what decay really looks like; preserving them in caskets instead of allowing them to rot and return to the Earth. In many ways I see society’s issues with suicide as symptomatic of this larger poorly painted treatment of death in general.

As with anything, though, I’d still have to say it depends on circumstances. I think most of us would say that a single father who has two young kids to be responsible for may be a bit more self-centered in killing himself than a widowed man with no dependents. In that case, relieving yourself from harm is causing great harm to those around you. That I have difficulty condoning. In other cases, it is almost self-centered to keep living. If you’re in a vegetative state and your loved ones are paying all those medical bills to keep you alive, you’re acting as a drain on their finances and their lives. Personally I would not want to burden my loved ones with such a thing; my ‘existence’ is doing them harm and it makes sense to end it.

[Wolfboy183]

In the UK, before 1961, suicide was a crime. people who failed in attempt to kill themselves were actually charged, prosecuted, and thrown in jail.

[Vicelin]

Probably because it is such a societal tabboo. Interesting fact, thanks for sharing, Wolfboy.

[Author]

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